Re: [PROPOSAL/PATCH] Fortuna PRNG in /dev/random
Date: Sat Sep 25 2004 - 21:32:22 EST
> I was trying to point out a flaw in Ted's logic. He said "we've recently
> discoverd these hashes are weak because we found collsions. Current
> /dev/random doesn't care about this."
And he's exactly right. The only attack that would be vaguely relevant
to /dev/random's use would be a (first) preimage attack, and even that's
probably not helpful.
There *is* no flaw in his logic. The attack we need to guard against
is, given hash(x) and a (currently mostly linear) state mixing function
mix(), one that would let you compute (partial information about)
y[i+1] = hash(x[i+1]) from y = hash(x) ... y[i] = hash(x[i])
where x[i] = mix(x[i-1]).
Given that y[i] is much smaller than x[i], you'd need to put together
a lot of them to derive something, and that's distinctly harder than
a single-output preimage attack.
> I certainly wasn't saying padding was a requirment. But I was trying to
> point out that the SHA-1 implementaion crrently in /dev/random by design is
> collision vulnerable. Collision resistance isn't a requirment for its
> purposes obviously.
No, it is, by design, 100% collision-resistant. An attacker neither
sees nor controls the input x, so cannot use a collision attack.
Thus, it's resistant to collisions in the same way that it's resistant
[There's actually a flaw in my logic. I know Ted knows about it, because
he implemented a specific defense in the /dev/random code against it; it's
just not 100% information-theoretic ironclad. If anyone else can spot
it, award yourself a clue point. But it's still not a plausible attack.]
FURTHERMORE, even if an attacker *could* control the input, it's still
exactly as collision resistant as unmodified SHA-1. Because it only
accepts fixed-size input blocks, padding is unnecessary and irrelevant
to security. Careful padding is ONLY required if you are working with
The fact that collision resistance is not a security requirement is a
> Guess my pointing this out is a lost cause.
In much the same way that pointing out that the earth is flat is a
lost cause. If you want people to believe nonsense, you need to dress
it up a lot and call it a religion.
As for Ted's words:
> Whether or not we should trust the design of something as
> critical to the security of security applications as /dev/random to
> someone who fails to grasp the difference between these two rather
> basic issues is something I will leave to the others on LKML.
Fortuna may be a good idea after all (I disagree, but I can imagine
being persuaded otherwise), but it has a very bad advocate right now.
Would anyone else like to pick up the torch?
By the way, I'd like to repeat my earlier question: you say Fortuna ia
well-regarded in crypto circles. Can you cite a single paper to back
that conclusion? Name a single well-known cryptographer, other than
the authors, who has looked at it in some detail?
There might be one, but I don't know of any. I respect the authors
enough to know that even they recognize that an algorithm's designers
sometimes have blind spots.
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