On Wed, Jun 14, 2000, H. Peter Anvin <hpa@transmeta.com> wrote:
> Johannes Erdfelt wrote:
> > >
> > > Because otherwise you have another system you also need to support.
> >
> > Things take time to phase in.
>
> ... and until they do, they are mostly a curiousity. If EFI turns
> ubiquitous, then we can see if we can use it to clean up booting. For
> now, it's a non-issue.
You need to actually push something before it becomes accepted.
Thankfully, this does not have to be ubiquitous before starting to
support it.
> > > The PC platform is over 20 years old, and if there is any evidence it
> > > isn't going to go through such a fundamental change any time soon.
> > > Perhaps by 2010 something will happen. I'm not holding my breath.
> >
> > There's nothing fundamental about it. It's an evolutionary upgrade to
> > the PC platform.
>
> It's evolutionary only if you use it in BIOS mode, i.e. again, it's not
> our concern at this time.
I think you may be misunderstanding how EFI works. Using EFI does not
preclude legacy support. Check the Intel docs.
It's complementary to the legacy style of booting.
For reference (for possibly you but more importantly other people
following the thread), here's the Intel EFI page which has all of the
specs, sample implementations, slide shows and toolkits for EFI:
http://developer.intel.com/technology/efi/index.htm
> > No one said that this will immediately solve all our problems, but it
> > will be better for everyone in the long run.
> >
> > The current method of booting OS' sucks. It's a hack on top of a kludge
> > on top of a band aid. I'm really surprised to see you so pessimistic about
> > fixing this.
>
> No question it sucks. The entire PC platform sucks. I'm pessimistic
> about that ever changing, because ever "improvement" usually builds on
> the previous kluges and usually just creates an even worse mess. The
> PXE booting standard that Intel has also been pushing, for example, is
> so buggy -- both in spec, and in implementation -- that it is just one
> step away from unusable.
>
> Anyhow, for the time being, EFI is a non-entity. It doesn't exist on
> any real platforms. I don't expect it to happen any time soon, *because
> PC vendors don't need it*. PC vendors don't ship serial console support
> in BIOSes, even though BIOS vendors sell them, because they don't have
> to, and BIOS vendors want an extra $0.50 or so per machine if they do.
> Things don't change in the PC world unless they absolutely have to.
>
> IA64 machines are another platform, and that's a completely different
> matter. However, I can promise you that the PC (IA32) platform won't
> change any more than it absolutely have to.
EFI does not build on the legacy method of booting. I think you may be
confusing some things of PXE with EFI. I can assure they are completely
different.
EFI is much more than something as trivial as serial console support.
In fact, it won't even help you with serial console support before it
loads, like in the BIOS setup or something similar. That's not what it
was really designed for. Check the docs.
That being said, anyone can install EFI onto their system, regardless if
it came that way from the vendor. In fact, you want something now? Grab
the sample implementation, compile it and install. I haven't tried this
myself, but Intel says it's possible.
> > I'm starting to get the distinct impression from you that you really
> > would rather see nothing change in Linux (getting rid of major/minor
> > number) and PC's (legacy style booting of OS'). This really surprises
> > me.
>
> I'm starting to get the distinct impression you're trying to use ad
> hominem arguments when you run out of technical ones. This I find
> pitiful.
Actually, that wasn't meant as an argument. That was me pointing out that
I don't think you're interested in helping. It was me trying to get you
to offer some useful input to the discussion rather than pessimistically
shutting down any new ideas or changes.
I make arguments against a particular point or topic, not against
people.
Of course your "This I find pitiful" statement could be interpreted
as something similar. I won't.
Anyway, I still don't see the reason for sinking resources into the
legacy boot loaders (LILO, Syslinux, etc) while there is a perfectly
reasonable alternative which is here today.
Assuming you still don't agree, I suggest we end the discussion now.
Talk is cheap. You can continue putting work into Syslinux while I,
and hopefully others, will work on EFI. I have a feeling this is
something that time will solve for us.
JE
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