[snip]
> I don't care. I have been around in the Unix world for about 12 years now and
> I have already survived the GUI wars back then. I don't need them again in a
Nice for you.
> Freeware version. Back then it was Sun's OpenView vs. TOG's Motif and it
> almost killed commercial Unix. Now it is KDE vs. Gnome and it will hurt badly
> again. This must stop, now.
>
> But instead I see RedHat fueling the war by commercially enhancing the
> lagging Gnome project and expanding on a second, incompatible API. There is
> no way anybody in Freenix land will ever support two APIs and there can be
> only one winner if this goes to war. This winner lives in Redmond.
Oh and you're just behaving exactly like the borg. Assimilate or die.
[snip]
> Because it hurts the "sales" of Linux as a whole. The sum of both parts in
> this will be smaller than the whole and that is a loss for everyone involved.
> Again, look up on the Unix GUI wars to understand. Or just imagine yourself
> firing up the KDE control center to set up preferences for your desktop
> environment, then starting the Gnome control center to set up preferences for
> your Gnome applications, which are stored differently and in a different
> place. Then think of yourself in a user help desk, answering calls from users
> where you have to explain why certain applications look different than
> others, work different than others or don't even talk to each other. Then
> think yourself in the postition of a IT manager forced to upgrade 1200
> desktop machines from 32 MB to 48 MB or 64 MB because that RAM is needed to
> hold two GUI libraries and their helper applications in memory so that a
> mixed desktop can be operated.
One good point: Interoperability is due, but this involves both sides. The
memory issue is a non-issue in comparison to the memory footprint of e.g. X.
Or the memory hunger of any image manipulation program. And don't come with
W*ndoze - here you've got Win32-API, MFC, Borland-API, eventually qt and/or
wxWindows..., and so on.
> > > But no, instead you start all over and create a second,
> > > incompatible toolGit throwing away several 100,000 lines of
> > > fine code that has already been written for KDE. Is it just me
> > > or is this really, objectively stupid?
[I don't know if this came from you, Kristian, but 'to whom it may concern':]
Incompatibility is arbitrary: gtk+/gnome may be incompatible to KDE, but the
toolkit, KDE is built upon, is only compatible to C++, and it's licensing is
completely incompatible to my brain (and no thanks, I'm neither gonna change
nor wash it :-).
> >
> > Have you looked at GNOME? Its point is not just to redo KDE with a
> > different toolkit; it's to do a desktop according to the ideas and
> > concepts of a number of people who differ with KDE on a lot of things
> > more important than the toolkit used.
>
> Of course none of these persons you just imagined will ever be in the
> position described, because nobdy with a sane mind will maneuver himself into
> this situation. The save buy from Redmond guarantees compatibility,
> interoperability and efficiency in a way such a mess like the unorganized,
> too-many-choices-to-get-anything-done Unix desktop can never deliver. Linux
> is just about to prove that. Again.
Heck, I want those "too many choices" - so I'm able to choose the solution
that fits my needs, I've had people making decisions for me more than long
enough. Thank you.
>
>
> > I _like_ the fact that there are two of them, and that none is a straight
> > clone of the other, and that they have a different design philosophy. It
> > means more choice for me.
>
> Unless you are a developer forced to support both. Then it means more work
> and less revenue.
>
> > Huh? Are you arguing that KDE invented the concept of a desktop?
>
> KDE started the Linux desktop. There was no need to start another such
> project, splintering valuable ressources and ghurting both camps AND Linux as
> a whole in the public perception.
Oh yes, there is a need and not only because of this "lame" licensing issue we
don't want to talk about anymore on this list, but because qt (and KDE) only
offer a C++ API with which many developers are not comfortable (or do you
want to convert them as well - first the desktop, then the programming
language - how borgish).
>
> > The
> > "G" people can only complain about _ONE_ thing, which is anyone taking
> > their CODE and linking it with Qt, since some of them obviously feel
> > that that is not allowed with their licensing.
>
> And these license issues will not help owning the desktop, either. "Yes, you
You own your desktop. I own mine. Any problems with that?
> can have Gimp, which is free. And you can have KDE, which is also free. But
> no, you can't have a KDE Gimp, because we don't like that. You will have to
> decide which applications you want to use: Either KDE or Gimp. Or you will
Here, you get this nice program which is distributed under the GPL. Stick to
this license or use another one. The Gimp was there _before_ KDE and while
there are reasons to make K-apps and G-apps interoperate, the way is not a
toolkit switch, due to this (using our favourite image manipulation program as
an example): the developers used this toolkit intentionally and they are not
willing to switch. PERIOD. Don't tell me you want to drive them "out of
business" - this would be extremely childish (and severe to GIMP's
development). BTW: No one said G-apps couldn't support
KDE-{session-management,configuration,...} (_and_ vice versa - be fair), they
just will not be dependant on an (at least now) proprietary (yes it is) GUI
toolkit. This thought makes me feel well, because I couldn't stand a
proprietary core library on my system (and in an 'only KDE'-world this would
be a core lib). I here you yelling "harmony" and it _still_ is a C++-only way.
You can't have the language flexibility that you have with gtk+/gnome now
(this is a point were it would be hard for qt/harmony/KDE to catch up: C, C++,
perl, python, tom, Objective-C, ...).
> have to invest and learn, support, distribute and maintain two incompatible
> systems on your Desktop". This simply won't fly. It didn't eight years ago
Incompatible? This issue can be solved (if "both sides" show the will to do
it, the mantra of the hour: INTER-OPERABILITY. Repeat it a few times).
Nils
-- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Nils Philippsen @college: nils@rhlx01.rz.fht-esslingen.de Vogelsangstrasse 115 @home: nils@wombat.dialup.fht-esslingen.de D 70197 Stuttgart - clickety click - phone: +49-711-6599405 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Wer heute an der Bildung spart, Those who scrimp on education today, hat morgen noch bloedere Politiker. get even dumber politicians tomorrow.
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