In <Pine.LNX.4.21.0001162357060.24192-100000@james.kalifornia.com> Blu3Viper (david@killerlabs.com) wrote:
B> On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Khimenko Victor wrote:
>> > You missed my qualifier. I asked that ORBS not be used while they practice
>> > their policy of global blacklisting. I fully support ORBS in it's efforts
>> > to stop spam by affecting the broken systems. Any servers on Above.net
>> > address space that are open should be listed. The other hundreds of
>> > thousands should remain fully free.
>>
>> It's not possible since ABOVE.NET choose to block ORBS. If systems @ ABOVE.NET
>> are blacklisted it's ABOVE.NET fault, not ORBS fault.
B> Yes it is possible. Above.net is -NOT- blocking ORBS from their entire
B> address space, only select space. ORBS chooses to blacklist all the
B> above.net space which makes it the fault of ORBS when they decree everyone
B> should suffer the punishment instead of the selected block.
They cannot find exact border. It's easy to find out that some of Above.net's
servers are blocked and what adresses are assigned to Above.net. It's not easy
(or perhaps even impossible for outsiders) to find out what exactly is blocked.
So the whole net is marked as "bloking one".
>> > Especially when the ones I touch are listed in the database as anti-spam
>> > compliant.
>>
>> Hmm. Since that server is blocked spammer can mark it as "anti-spam compliant"
>> as well. ORBS bot can not check it.
B> NO. The server is -not- blocked. ALL of the VA servers are fully
B> probeable.
B> Read again what I wrote. In specific, mail.linux.com has been probed by
B> ORBS and is listed as compliant. The ORBS probe HAS checked it and it IS
B> anti-spam but it is STILL blacklisted because another section of above.net
B> is blocking ORBS.
This is strange :-( If they are in ORBS static list them why ORBS tried
to probe them ? Hmm. Anyway I can not find mail.linux.com (210.201.200.216) in
ORBS right now. Neither as "Open Relay" (216.201.200.206.relays.orbs.org) nor
as "Non Open Relay" (216.201.200.206.ok.orbs.org)... If you are using different
IP address as source for outgoing traffic then you can just tune you system
slightly, that's all.
>> > I draw the line when they shoot the whole city just to stop a dozen people.
>>
>> Not dozen peoples. Just city's head. And they DO NOT SHOOT them. They just
>> refuse to speak with them till policy is not changed. It's what US goverment
>> is doing all the time: "we will not speak with you till you'll do this and
>> that". If it's Ok for US goverment why it's not Ok for ORBS ?
B> No, ALL people in the above.net address space are equally affected. NOT
B> just the above.net servers.
I can not see how mail.linux.com is affected :-(
>> > anyone for other people's problems. I'm saying ORBS is practicing a group
>> > prejudice.
>>
>> Just like US goverment (and most other goverments out there :-)...
B> If you are a US citizen, you have the right to vote and affect legislation.
B> It's not a problem until it's your problem?
If it'll become my problem I know how to fix it :-) I can not change ISP
(it's school and we had no choice) but I have quite a few friends who can
work as mail relay for me if our ISP will be stupid enough to try to block
ORBS. BTW my first discovery of ORBS was when it sent me mail where I was
notified about possibility to use our system as open-relay.
>> They can blame existing one. If they will complaing loud enough provider can
>> change his mind. They can ask someone to work as ORBS-allowed relay for him
>> (if my friend will ask me to work as relay I'll give him key and allow SMTP
>> over SSL for him so he'll be able to send mail even if his provider is blocked
>> by ORBS).
>>
>> > That anti-spam abiding citizen shouldn't have to face the blacklist because
>> > his provider has blocked ORBS from testing.
>>
>> Why so ? They are the ones who support provider by his money. They are the ones
>> who can ask him to change his mind. ORBS can not do this. But ORBS CAN blacklist
>> that provider and they done that.
B> Someone in your neighborhood refuses to allow the nazi police to come into
B> their home and inspect for utility compliance. Therefore, the utilities for
B> your neighborhood will be shut off.
Not nazi police but more like phone company master :-) And yes, phone company
master CAN ask me to show him what's connected to my phone line. And it WILL
shut up phone line if I'll refuse to do this. It's perfectly legal here (though
usually phone master is to lazy to go to my home :-)
>> > My mail server XYZ is anti-spam compliant and listed as such in the ORBS
>> > database, why then is it being blacklisted?
>>
>> If it's can not be checked by ORBS bot than it's Ok: ORBS can not check if
>> someone who marked it as "anti-spam compliant" is not spammer and can not check
>> itself. If not, then it's definiteally something wrong.
B> Ok, I've said this in one of every two emails I've sent on this subject, one
B> more time:
B> OUR SERVERS HAVE BEEN PROBED BY ORBS AND LISTED 'OK'
B> THE ENIRE ABOVE.NET ADDRESS SPACE IS NOT FIREWALLING ORBS.
And which address is affected ? 210.201.200.216 is not there.
>> > Is generic blacklisting right?
>>
>> If there are no choice then yes.
B> There is a choice. Blacklist the "100 or so" mail servers that ORBS has
B> found open. And that is from the mouth of ORBS.
They are added there. As "open relay piked up by automated system".
-- cut --
[khim@dell khim]$ host mail.above.net
mail.above.net has address 207.126.96.177
mail.above.net mail is handled (pri=5) by email.above.net
[khim@dell khim]$ host 177.96.126.207.relays.orbs.org.
177.96.126.207.relays.orbs.org has address 127.0.0.2
[khim@dell khim]$ host -t TXT 177.96.126.207.relays.orbs.org.
177.96.126.207.relays.orbs.org descriptive text "Open relay - see http://www.orbs.org/verify.cgi?address=207.126.96.177"
-- cut --
B> The short and simple is this: ORBS is being blocked from a group of servers
B> on above.net, therefore ORBS has decreed that ALL address space SWIPed by
B> above.net be blacklisted.
Exactly. There are NO WAY to automatically find out which servers are bloking
ORBS and which are not. So they are all marked as "netblock entry":
-- cut --
[khim@dell khim]$ host 177.196.126.207.relays.orbs.org.
177.196.126.207.relays.orbs.org has address 127.0.0.4
-- cut --
It's up to admin to allow or refuse "netblock entries". Hmm. Perhaps I should
add check for .ok.orbs.org. before check for relays.orbs.org. ...
B> Now, since we invented automation and have this automated probe capability,
B> should ORBS blacklist several class B networks or should they blacklist the
B> individual machines?
There are NO automatic procedure to find blocking. Thus all automatisation
works ONLY till bloking attempts are detected.
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This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Sun Jan 23 2000 - 21:00:15 EST